<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1497</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/15/99 3:32:33 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 15 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1497<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Starship re-payments<BR>
Re: A Question iSteve<BR>
Re: Munchkins<BR>
Re: Re Vector Maintenance<BR>
Re: Velocity/Vector<BR>
they're coming! they're coming!<BR>
They're coming! (again)<BR>
RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
Re: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
US Constitution [OT]<BR>
Re: US Constitution [OT]<BR>
Just testing...<BR>
Re: They're coming! (again)<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Australia - Orbital badness<BR>
Many apologies to the list...<BR>
Weapons, etc.<BR>
Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)<BR>
Thuddd 10<BR>
Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: Thuddd 10<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:25:53 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Starship re-payments<BR>
<BR>
>    Or upgraded with higher tech components, are you SURE thats a tech<BR>
level<BR>
>12 frieghter your about to attack? Maybe the only the hull is.<BR>
>    Jim L.<BR>
<BR>
    Did I type that? (shudder)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:55:44 -0800<BR>
From: Edward Swatschek <traveller@bitslayer.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question iSteve<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:<BR>
> I think there is something *VERY* wierd about the email software he's using. <BR>
> I've been unable to figure out why, but every message he sends ends listed<BR>
> as having been sent on the same day in April 2000 by Eudora 4.  Despite the <BR>
> fact he's sent some of them on different days, and there is no sign of that<BR>
> date in the message headers that I've been able to find.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It looks like a web-based emailer.  The Date header on the messages are<BR>
malformed.  They look like<BR>
<BR>
   DATE: Tue,December 14 1999 : 15 05 52<BR>
<BR>
It should look more like<BR>
<BR>
   Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:05:52 -0000<BR>
<BR>
Interesting what date Eudora chose.  When my email software can't parse the<BR>
the date, it chooses to display when time began: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 -0800<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:46:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 12/11/99 7:58 PM, dlpulver@kos.net wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Poul Anderson elves<BR>
><BR>
> Uh, I'm drawing a blank here, and I am supposed to be fully versed in this<BR>
> stuff. Would you mind refreashing my memory lest my my WWW search proves<BR>
> unfruitful?<BR>
><BR>
> Chirping Elf (off in quest of /alfari poulis/)<BR>
<BR>
Check out "The Broken Sword", and "Three Hearts and Three Lions". The<BR>
former gives you a good idea of why Elves were *feared* in the Dark<BR>
Ages. The latter gives you a nice "scientific" look at elves.<BR>
<BR>
For example, iron is incredibly toxic to elves[1], so they use various<BR>
exotic alloys, where they've used magic to extract the metals. They<BR>
don't like sunlight because they are highly sensitive to UV. <BR>
<BR>
This leads to things like an Elflord carrying an odd dagger with a soft<BR>
blade and *wide* bell guard. The blade is *magnesium* (which gives off<BR>
*lots* of UV while burning). The guard would protect his hand from the<BR>
light. He'd likely protect the rest of his body by throwing his cloak<BR>
over his head.<BR>
<BR>
[1]Gee. Elves find iron to be very toxic. And UV is bad for them. They<BR>
are supposed to be an incredibly ancient civilization. <BR>
<BR>
So, we can deduce a planet around a much redder star, and with few<BR>
heavy metals. That means a *second* generation star, which makes their<BR>
culture *billions* of years old. No wonder they have "magic" tech. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:55:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Vector Maintenance<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 12/11/99 5:57 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Slight problem. There are *two* possible vectors that satisfy your<BR>
>> conditions in some cases.<BR>
><BR>
> Only two? Give each a fifty-fifty chance? Call it a weird function of<BR>
> quantum mechanical probability fields, or other such techno-babble?<BR>
<BR>
I suppose so. If you must.<BR>
<BR>
But as I noted in another message, stop and consider a major *drawback*<BR>
to your setup. <BR>
<BR>
If my vector is pointed at the planet I'm leaving, then when I exit<BR>
jump, it'd be pointed at the destination planet, right? <BR>
<BR>
This makes it almost *trivial* to play nasty games with near c rocks.<BR>
Accelerate in one system, where there's nobody who cares, then jump to<BR>
the target system and cut loose the payload. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:21:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Velocity/Vector<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>Josh W. Spencer writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>If you measured relative to the planet you left, then on exit<BR>
>>you'd measure relative to the position and velocity the planet had<BR>
>>when you jumped, not it's current velocity and position (both of<BR>
>>which have changed in the intervening week).<BR>
><BR>
>         That depends entirely on how you want to bend the physics.<BR>
>         You may do as you like IYTU.<BR>
<BR>
I was just trying to make sure that folks understood that conserving<BR>
velocity relative to *different* objects *was* "bending physics".<BR>
<BR>
I can accept people bending or breaking the laws of physics in games or<BR>
stories. But only if they *know* they are breaking them, and have<BR>
thought things thru. Otherwise, the law of unintended consequences<BR>
tends to jump out and bite you. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>>Can<BR>
>>>freetraders accelerate all the way to 100 diameters, then jump<BR>
>>>so that they will arrive headed into their destination planet?<BR>
>>>(this would make intercepting ships at 100D very difficult)<BR>
>>Don't forget that the time you spend in jump *varies*.<BR>
><BR>
>         That is what most people assume.  I allow some variation,<BR>
>         but not anything like a day.<BR>
<BR>
It's in the rules, at least some editions allow for bout that much<BR>
variation. <BR>
<BR>
>>That means that if you aimed for a spot at the 100 diameter<BR>
>>limit of the destination, but emerged a day early (or a day late)<BR>
>>the planet will be a *long* ways away. For example, earth orbit's<BR>
>>the sun at 30 km/sec. So in 24 hours it moves 2.6 *million* km.<BR>
>>That's several hours away in normal space.<BR>
><BR>
>         This argument only works if "jumpspace" works in a certain<BR>
>         way.  IMTU, masses such as planets warp jumpspace and<BR>
>         influence reentry into normal space.  Thus, there is a<BR>
>         tendency to come out close to the planet.  Even so, it is<BR>
>         not unknown for ships to arrive much further than 2.6 million<BR>
>         km from their destination (depending on pilot and nav skills,<BR>
>         various DMs, etc.) IMTU.  This is not a problem for me.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm making the (reasonable, in my opinion) assumption that you<BR>
"aim" your jump for a specific *location*. That is, you in effect tell<BR>
the computer, we want to go *this* distance, in *that* direction. And<BR>
if you don't misjump, you exit jump at the target point plus/minus a<BR>
bit for uncontrollable "random" factors.<BR>
<BR>
This fits in fairly well with Mark Miller's statements that if your<BR>
jump "line" intersects the 100 diameter limit of anything between your<BR>
entry to jump and your planned exit, you pop out of jump there. <BR>
<BR>
He hasn't answered my question about *when* you pop out of jump. You<BR>
see, if you work it out, there could be a planet in the way for only a<BR>
few hours. So it matters if those few hours occur when the ship is in<BR>
that part of the jump. <BR>
<BR>
For example, assume that you move along the line at a steady rate. That<BR>
means that if the planet is half way, and "hits" the jump line 3.5 days<BR>
after you start the jump, you'd get precipitated out of jump. Except<BR>
that means your jump only took 3.5 days.<BR>
<BR>
If you assume "instant" jump, with your ship sitting at the far end<BR>
until the "jump buble decays, then the planet crossing the jump line<BR>
shouldn't affect you unless it crosses the line at the moment you jump.<BR>
And if you sit there until 7 days later, you may need a while to find<BR>
what it was that dumped you there!<BR>
<BR>
There are a *lot* of unanswered questions, and every answer breeds new<BR>
questions. <BR>
<BR>
Whatever way folks decide to handle things, it needs to be *logical*.<BR>
Not merely arbritary decision stacked on top of arbtrary decision. That<BR>
leads you into situations where you have to make more and more<BR>
arbitrary decisions because *previous* decision have logical<BR>
consequences that contradict each other. <BR>
<BR>
Even non-scientific players start gettung upset when they come up with<BR>
clever things that are consistent with what they've been told the rules<BR>
are, and get told that it doesn't work that way.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, my best reason for going with "real" conservation of momentum,<BR>
rather than having it conserved relative to the star/planet at each end<BR>
of the jump is that the latter makes it *possible* to run a ship up to<BR>
near c velocities then jump it into another system and have a good<BR>
chance of being aimed at the target planet. All they have to do is be<BR>
aimed at the planet they are jumping from. They'd come out aimed at the<BR>
planet they are jumping to.<BR>
<BR>
If you *don't* want that to be possible, then you need the vectors to<BR>
work differently, and the easiest way is to use "real" physics.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:53:59 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: they're coming! they're coming!<BR>
<BR>
For a quite original campaign idea, see<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5493/<BR>
"Across the gulf of space..."<BR>
<BR>
Impressive resistance put up by a TL5 culture against<BR>
a TL8 culture....<BR>
<BR>
It's War of the Worlds, in case you haven't guessed<BR>
yet.<BR>
<BR>
<GURPS plug> "counter-intuitive game mechanics" it may<BR>
have, but it's smegging flexible, mate! </GURPS plug><BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:01:06 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: They're coming! (again)<BR>
<BR>
Woops! I repost this, this is the _right_ link....<BR>
(apologies and grovelling)<BR>
<BR>
For a quite original campaign idea, see<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5493/Steamtech<BR>
"Across the gulf of space..."<BR>
<BR>
Impressive resistance put up by a TL5 culture against<BR>
a TL8 culture....<BR>
<BR>
It's War of the Worlds, in case you haven't guessed<BR>
yet.<BR>
<BR>
<GURPS plug> "counter-intuitive game mechanics" it may<BR>
have, but it's smegging flexible, mate! </GURPS plug><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:59:45 -0600<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry:<BR>
>40 seconds is also about the time needed to blow through a single<BR>
100-round<BR>
>belt.  Coincidence?  I think not!<BR>
gaaarglae....In the name of Humaniti! Not while I'm eating cereal!<BR>
Anybody know how to clean Lucky Charms off the keyboard?<BR>
Dan Roseberry (plop101) I've been PLOPED!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:02:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Always wondered, though, if Jefferson would've written<BR>
> the 2nd Amendment if there'd been around AK-47s<BR>
> instead of just muskets that took a minute or two to<BR>
> load and were lucky to hit a man at a hundred yards!<BR>
> Anywya, are you sure that "the right to bear amrs, the<BR>
> right to form state militias, shall not be infringed",<BR>
> doesn't mean, "the right to bear arms, _that is_, the<BR>
> right to form state militias, shall not be infringed"?<BR>
<BR>
Nope, state militias and even the "unorganized militia" are *no* the<BR>
intent of that amendment. <BR>
<BR>
You see, it's a matter of record that there was a motion to insert the<BR>
phrase "in the common defence" after "to keep and bear arms". The<BR>
motion was voted *down*. <BR>
<BR>
That makes claiming that the right was intended to be limited to<BR>
bearing arms in the common defence rather difficult. <BR>
<BR>
You also have to remember that Jefferson and others are on record as<BR>
having stated (essentially) that if the government got out of hand, the<BR>
people were *supposed* to overthrow it by force of arms!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:18:15 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: US Constitution [OT]<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Always wondered, though, if Jefferson would've written<BR>
>the 2nd Amendment if there'd been around AK-47s<BR>
>instead of just muskets that took a minute or two to<BR>
>load and were lucky to hit a man at a hundred yards!<BR>
>Anywya, are you sure that "the right to bear amrs, the<BR>
>right to form state militias, shall not be infringed",<BR>
>doesn't mean, "the right to bear arms, _that is_, the<BR>
>right to form state militias, shall not be infringed"?<BR>
><BR>
>=====<BR>
>KA Schuant<BR>
><BR>
The Second amendment says no such thing. it reads:<BR>
"A well regulated milita, being necessary to the security of a free State,<BR>
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."<BR>
Ammendment 2 to the US constitution, as presented in "A History of the<BR>
United States Since 1856", R. N. Current & G. J. Goodwin, 1980.<BR>
<BR>
It does not specifically enable state militias, nor require that one be in<BR>
the "well regulated militia" to keep and bear Arms. note the capitalization<BR>
of State. In general, the capitalized singular form refers to a<BR>
Nation-State, not to a member of the union, in most interpretations. In a<BR>
strictly libertarian view, it becomes enabling for any person to own any<BR>
Arms; More realistically, it means that citizens shall be allowed to own<BR>
Arms. Interestingly enough, I'm not aware of any arguments in federal<BR>
courts challenging the 2nd ammendment on the basis that Arms (Capitalized)<BR>
means Patents of Arms or Achievements of Arms, thus heraldric devisings....<BR>
which was still the common terminology at the time written. However, any<BR>
who doubt that the framers intended all citizens to bear arms should read<BR>
"The Federalist Papers" by Publius. Publius is a pseudonym for Ben Franklin<BR>
and Two Other Framers....<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Is it any wonder that the imperium is a Rule By Decree government?<BR>
If you let others interpret constitutions, you get Others Twisted Views<BR>
(tm). How much twist can we get out of the Declarations from M0 (I don't<BR>
have a copy, so *I* can't do the twisting....)<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:42:48 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: US Constitution [OT]<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: Is it any wonder that the imperium is a<BR>
> Rule By Decree government?<BR>
> If you let others interpret constitutions, you get<BR>
> Others Twisted Views<BR>
> (tm). How much twist can we get out of the<BR>
> Declarations from M0 (I don't<BR>
> have a copy, so *I* can't do the twisting....)<BR>
<BR>
Quite right, William, like getting nine "others" to<BR>
interpret it. Do you think a group of nine would all<BR>
interpret it the same way? Or might they argue amongst<BR>
themselves? And then if you changed the people in the<BR>
group, they might go the other way in interpretation,<BR>
going on a majority view? I'm referring, of course, to<BR>
your own Supreme Court (gentle tease, just pointing<BR>
out that a differing opinion from the common one is<BR>
not necessarily caused by my being a foreigner)<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:50:08 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Just testing...<BR>
<BR>
...to see if this screws anyone's browser up....<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
<BR>
end<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:51:32 -0800<BR>
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: They're coming! (again)<BR>
<BR>
>Woops! I repost this, this is the _right_ link....<BR>
>(apologies and grovelling)<BR>
<BR>
Ah, we got it the first time :^)<BR>
<BR>
>For a quite original campaign idea, see<BR>
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5493/Steamtech<BR>
>"Across the gulf of space..."<BR>
><BR>
>Impressive resistance put up by a TL5 culture against<BR>
>a TL8 culture....<BR>
><BR>
>It's War of the Worlds, in case you haven't guessed<BR>
>yet.<BR>
<BR>
Very cool, more than a little rough, with some missing links, but very<BR>
cool!  I don't think I'd ever considered "War of the Worlds" as a RPG<BR>
setting, but it would make a killer setting.<BR>
<BR>
It's been decades (feels wierd being able to say that) since I read the<BR>
book, and I don't really remember much of anything about it.  However,<BR>
looks like a great start at a setting there.  Of course there are other<BR>
possible settings also...<BR>
<BR>
There is the Orsen Welles setting of the 30's, the Movie Setting of the<BR>
50's, and the TV setting of the late 80's/future.  The TV show sort of<BR>
combined the Orsen Wells/Movie and the TV show into a timeline, that would<BR>
let you construct a pretty detailed background as long as you could hack<BR>
the wierd Movie/TV tie-to-gether.  The 50's Movie setting or the Future TV<BR>
setting would both be good settings in this timeline.<BR>
<BR>
Actually an entire HG Wells sourcebook would be a cool undertaking!  Or<BR>
even a sourcebook based on the movies based on his works :^)<BR>
<BR>
><GURPS plug> "counter-intuitive game mechanics" it may<BR>
>have, but it's smegging flexible, mate! </GURPS plug><BR>
<BR>
Ah, just toss the blasted rules, and just use it for the Character<BR>
Generation.  This is the 90's who has time for rules!<BR>
<BR>
				Zane<BR>
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |<BR>
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |<BR>
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |<BR>
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+<BR>
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |<BR>
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |<BR>
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:52:22 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Australia - Orbital badness<BR>
<BR>
Hughes, Michael wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: In the Spinward Marches, is there a system that the rest of the<BR>
> sector regards as a genetic joke?<BR>
<BR>
Yea.... Vland.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:58:01 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Many apologies to the list...<BR>
<BR>
...for yesterday's "multiple-postings-with-odd-attachment" fiasco.  <BR>
Hopefully it's all fixed now.<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
<BR>
end<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:14:38 +0200<BR>
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi><BR>
Subject: Weapons, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Finland, what a glorious nations, where the most<BR>
> repressive gun laws are noise pollution laws!<BR>
<BR>
	There are two sides in each coin.<BR>
<BR>
	We have to apply for a license for each gun separately, and it 	<BR>
	always includes a background check (it takes one week). The <BR>
	recent changes in Finnish gun laws made it more clear what is <BR>
	required for gun license application.<BR>
<BR>
	Basically, if a person can provide a "legally acceptable <BR>
	reason" why he needs a certain type of weapon, the license will <BR>
	be granted (you can't apply a machine pistol for "duck <BR>
	hunting").<BR>
<BR>
	If the applied weapon is very unusual, the local police will <BR>
	refuse the application ("wash their hands"), and the application <BR>
	must be re-send to the district headquarters. As far as I know, <BR>
	the district headquarters has not refused any reasonable <BR>
	applications.<BR>
<BR>
	Because of EU legal homogenization, we now need a separate <BR>
	license for purchasing "dangerous" ammunition. Various types of <BR>
	expanding and fragmenting bullets are considered dangerous (this <BR>
	comes from German gun laws), but the ERVA license can be <BR>
	obtained very easily (it took me ~3 minutes of talking).<BR>
<BR>
	The net effect of tightened gun laws was that we need one more <BR>
	license, and can buy just about any weapon if we can provide <BR>
	reason for buying it.<BR>
<BR>
	(Err... sorry about this rambling. Legal/political/social<BR>
	issues are largely beyond my understanding. Back to Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	In Traveller I have assumed that starship crew and passengers <BR>
	need either local or "general" gun license (depending on local <BR>
	Law Level) if they want to carry personal weapons when they <BR>
	leave the ship.<BR>
<BR>
	In Imperium the imperial nobles might be considered as being <BR>
	"above" the local laws, but in Solomani Confederation I have <BR>
	assumed that there is a kind "Confederate gun license" which <BR>
	allows the holder to carry personal small-arms within the <BR>
	confederation (SolSec personnel would have this kind of <BR>
	license which supersedes the local restrictions).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi<BR>
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:29:29 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)<BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
>Terry wrote:<BR>
>> I suspect it's more of a homogenous society issue<BR>
>> than a temperature issue.<BR>
>> It's easier to kill those who are not like us than<BR>
>> those who are like us.<BR>
><BR>
>Smegging right it's flamebait! Excuse me, but<BR>
>similarity with small differences causes more violence<BR>
>than _great_ differences. Just look at the<BR>
>prtoestant-christian bollocks in Northern Ireland, the<BR>
>Sunni-Shiite conflicts, the various Sino-Soviet wars,<BR>
>China's invasion of Vietnam, Vietnam's invasion of<BR>
>Cambodia, etc etc etc. <BR>
<BR>
I think I can disagree - but can I bring this on topic?<BR>
<BR>
Tricky...<BR>
<BR>
Firstly, I would offer that the main reason that people<BR>
have wars with those who are similar but with small<BR>
differences is that they are fundamentally...<BR>
<BR>
	...closer!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
England has a much longer history of wars with Scotland<BR>
and France than it has with China for this reason.<BR>
<BR>
Similarly, the Thirty Years War in Europe in the Seventeenth<BR>
century involved much larger armies than the conquest<BR>
of the "New World" in the Fifteenth because they didn't<BR>
have to move those armies across a few thousand miles<BR>
of ocean.<BR>
<BR>
However, I think you'd agree that man for man, the<BR>
armies in the "New World" affected far more people.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav...<BR>
<BR>
Did the attitude of the forces involved in the Fifth<BR>
Frontier War change once the Corridor Fleet arrived and<BR>
we no longer had a border skirmish between the Marchers<BR>
and the Zondani "the enemy we knew and loved" but<BR>
instead had the revenging hordes liberating the Marches<BR>
from those mind rapists?<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:54:55 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Thuddd 10<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I've tried everything I can think of to get to the Thuddd 10 page<BR>
and it isn't working. Could some kind soul please give me the URL?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species who's females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:55:41 +1100<BR>
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)<BR>
<BR>
On 14/12/99, Kyle Schuant sayeth :<BR>
<BR>
<<Snippage occurred>><BR>
<BR>
>It may be psychologically and socially _easier_ to<BR>
>kill those who are very very different, but the<BR>
>differences can often cause puzzlement rather than<BR>
>aggression. Aggression comes from offence at their<BR>
>_slight_ differences. If someone is _completely_<BR>
>different, we'll just concludethey're too weird to<BR>
>understand, or bonkers, and won't get angry. But if<BR>
>they're _almost_ the same, but not quite, we'll be<BR>
>offended at the difference, eg "those buggers over<BR>
>there in East Belfast believe in Jesus, but don't like<BR>
>the Pope, how dare they?!!!" as opposed to, "those<BR>
>weirdoes in Beijing neverheard of Jesus."<BR>
<BR>
Will some of the more learned members of the list correct me if I'm wrong<BR>
here, buuuut .....<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't the bloodiest hour of combat in history at Chancellorsville or was<BR>
it The Seven Days ?  Something like 5000 dead in an hour ?  Or is my<BR>
failing memory leading me on ?  IIRC, the bloodiest *day* was Day 1 of The<BR>
Somme.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:20:42 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
On 12/15/1999 00:46, Bruce Macintosh wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Current tech is straining it a little; Daedalus had a<BR>
> laser fusion drive; we can't even build a laser fusion setup<BR>
> that gets out more energy when its on the ground filling<BR>
> several entire buildings.<BR>
> <BR>
> And Daedalus was automated in spite of a hundred-year<BR>
> mission duration; NASA can't even build something autonamous<BR>
> that can manage to land on Mars...<BR>
<BR>
That's because Congress keeps cutting NASA's budget, just like they did 20<BR>
years ago with the space shuttle. If NASA were given its just due, it would<BR>
certainly be capable of properly designing spacecraft to do the job RIGHT.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 05:35:43 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Thuddd 10<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Okay, I've tried everything I can think of to get to the Thuddd 10 page<BR>
> and it isn't working. Could some kind soul please give me the URL?<BR>
<BR>
The URL is:<BR>
<BR>
http://THUDDD.homepage.com/thuddd10.html<BR>
<BR>
However, you'll have to hit "Reload" repeatedly until you get page to<BR>
display more than the ad banner.  I don't know why this is, I just tried<BR>
it until it worked.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1497<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.1]) by air-zb01.mail.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:32:33 -0500<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (v66.4) with ESMTP; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:32:17 -0500<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id GAA59410;<BR>
	Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:31:51 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:31:08 -0500<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id GAA59357<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:31:07 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:31:07 -0500 (EST)<BR>
Message-Id: <199912151131.GAA59357@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1497<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
